Pussies that flag posts

[jlev]

Jun 5, 2009 10:12:48 GMT -8 defiance said:

Jun 5, 2009 7:58:10 GMT -8 Richard said:

Wow, it looks like the freaks are all riled up on Craigslist again !!

I would love for one of those freaks to come here and make a post. Im sure they mean what they are saying, it would be interesting getting into a dialog with someone like that.

But, usually they like hiding behind their mini-blinds while wearing a bathrobe

The negativity surrounding Blues Jams listed on Craigslist began with a debate over whether the word 'Pro' should be used in the Blues Jam context. There are arguments from both sides, but what it comes down to is that Blues is a simple music using just 3 chords and 12 bars. When 'Pro' is used in the title, there is an implication that the word gives them the right to be selective over who gets to play, and who doesn't.

The supporters of the 'Pro' title then go on to say that they have to be selective over who is allowed to Jam so that the audience will remain satisfied. The thing is, an audience does not know and/or does not care about the difference between 'Pro' and 'non-Pro' playing. These same 'Pro' Jams would probably have excluded Robert Johnson had they been given the chance to simply because he "missed the I-IV change" by two bars. It no longer becomes a Jam when players are turned away, instead becoming a regular Blues gig with the same familiar featured guests...over and over again.

As a veteran(host band) of many hundreds of blues jams I have to respectfully disagree. While maybe the audience doesn't "know" the difference but the sho' nuff can hear it and feel it. It really does take a lot of attention to quality to keep a jam going long term. That's not to say that you need ALL pro players to make this happen, but you need to really be thoughtful about the line ups you put together. I have found that most players can be accomidated though not everyone is gonna get everything they want.

Bottom line, you got to keep people in the seats, and you do this by presenting a good show.

[rand]

I agree, Joe. If you don't present solid, quality entertainment on a consistent level; people will just simply go somewhere else to spend their time and money. I notice regulars ( Musicians and non-musicians alike are usually at a particular jam every week because they are enjoying the show, the venue and the other folks that are for the same reasons and are willing to invest their time, energy and money in the event. As far as the remark about "Pro" As I stated earlier, Consistent, Quality entertainment. A proper attitude are contributing factors to a pro- level jam or event. People will come back for those things. I'm glad to be part of a positive environment and I'm sure everyone likes to be attracted to positive events rather than negative ones

[defiance]

Jun 6, 2009 10:30:59 GMT -8 rand said:

I agree, Joe. If you don't present solid, quality entertainment on a consistent level; people will just simply go somewhere else to spend their time and money. I notice regulars ( Musicians and non-musicians alike are usually at a particular jam every week because they are enjoying the show, the venue and the other folks that are for the same reasons and are willing to invest their time, energy and money in the event. As far as the remark about "Pro" As I stated earlier, Consistent, Quality entertainment. A proper attitude are contributing factors to a pro- level jam or event. People will come back for those things. I'm glad to be part of a positive environment and I'm sure everyone likes to be attracted to positive events rather than negative ones

If the jam is Classical music, then it could theoretically be a 'Pro' jam. However, there is no such thing as a 'Pro' Blues jam. It matters little what "level" the players in the host band are "at". Such a thing can not be judged. Blues is simple music, don't make it more complicated than it has to be. Feeling is more important than technique; feeling can not be learned.

Blues is a guy on his front porch, standing on the street corner, or out in the field communicating with God. Granted, it may be the hardest music to master, but mastery of blues has never been a requirement in order to make it listenable.

Prisoners captured in blues field recordings by John and Alan Lomax on their 1939 Southern States Recording trip for the Library of Congress are by no means considered 'Pro', but they have more feeling and soul in their voices than any player found in a blues band in these here United States.

[jlev]

Well lets not hang up on the word"pro". Maybe say "quality" instead. I think(and this is often debated) every genre has its language and protocall. There are no laws on the books about jams, I guess its up to the managment and the hosts what is up to snuff. Like I have said before, every jam has it's own culture. In our case we try to balance giving everyone a chance with trying to keep the house entertained.it's not easy and someone is bound to be pissed.

My friend Ace is a serious poker player. He syas the key is to know which games you belong in and which ones are to tough.
In my case I would not presume to sit in at a New York City jazz jam, I know my limitations. While it might be "fair" to me to let me sit in, would it serve me? It sure wouldn't serve the other players or the house. I guess if we all put the music first, before our egos, it all works out.

Just my opinion,,,,,,,

[coolsongz]

I disagree with defiance
There is nothing wrong with the title "pro blues jam". It seems to me that everyone I know, who is involved in music as a lifestyle understands what that means. There have been pro blue jams for as long as there has been southern music and whiskey. "pro" simply implies that there are professional musicians involved, (and yes that includes even classical pro musicians too) or are hosting the jam. It also usually means that professional musicians are encouraged to participate. "Blues" is the genre of music being played at that particular gathering,- and you're right DEFIANCE, it may be the hardest music to master (funny you should call it simple in the same post) In fact it is so difficult (and rewarding) that I have not met a blues man yet who would say that he "mastered" it. Because blues as a genre is so dynamic in it's expressions and variations, there may be too many possible interpretations for ultimate mastery. Many of those very cool interpretations happen at blues jams , and because there are so many possibilities for variation and creativity, many of the sweetest-best musical moments will never come again. Most musicians know what I'm talking about. Now for the word "jam", An impromptu musical performance usually involving some musical improvisation .That was an easy one. So when you put the words together you can deduct that a pro blues jam is a group of people, with hopefully some professionals involved getting together to play a very expressive and interpretive kind of music, in an impromptu and possibly improvisational manner. So guess what THERE IS SUCH A THING!! Because I'm sure that at least once that scenario has happened. It is important that the host band be at a skill level high enough to attract other local pros. Why? Because that's what keeps an audience in the building. The management likes it, the musicians love it, and the energy level of the crowd often dictates the course of the evening. A good pro jam host will bring in as many skilled amateurs as can be accommodated. but the bottom line in a "pro" blues jam is the music, not who had a harder life or who's ego needs feeding . Just orchestrating a good show so that as many people as possible have a good time. I'm not quite skilled enough to sit in as a blues guitarist, though professional for years as a singer songwriter, blues is not my normal genre. I do however love to do it as a vocalist and have joined pro blues jams on that level. People shouldn't make such harsh judgments about something they know little about. I'm a long way from expert, but I do know one thing, I know what I like and I like it when a bunch of local pros get together to jam. Some of that music is the best there is. These are blues guys as they are and they're not standing on a porch or out in a field, (somebody has seen "crossroads" too many times). they're up there putting out the good tunes on a regular basis in a public place and keeping the jams alive. It's about the music. Always changing, always improving, and always touching at least one person. The cool thing about jazz or blues is that they are so interpretive, even the old covers are almost never played identically from one performance to the next. It's almost a zen thing, with putting the music out there, watching it create smiles- (and then try to remember how you did it so good). If it's gone forever, then it is what it is and you can at least leave that night and say to yourself "wow, that was a great jam!" As for the hosts, keep up the good work guys, some of us know the skill and commitment involved and really dig you for it. Tam

[kenb]

The term Pro is the question and why it is used to describe a jam situation. My understanding of the word is that a "pro" is someone who gets paid to perform. There is nothing in the word that qualifies the performer other than he/she gets paid. At a jam, I would imagine the only ones getting paid would be the host and his/her band, that means, by definition, any other performer is not a pro.

I've played with plenty of self-professed "pros" that couldn't hang, and I've played with guys that never left their living room to play that hang just fine, and the real pro in my mind is the one that doesn't have to say anything with their mouth, it's all said with their music, (which might be with their voice).

If a jam is selective and some are not allowed to participate because they don't have their "pro" card, then I would say its not really a jam. I have no problem however with that, as long as I know to bring my "pro" card with me. I can print that up in a few seconds. Then its on, I guess, I better measure up. I haven't really done very many "blues Jams," but the ones I have I was very warmly welcomed, played some tunes, did very well at making shit up, and added a few tasty "jazz" notes, (LOL) played em twice, and had a ton of fun.

i do the "pro" thing a few times a week on average, and tour and all the other stuff that makes a musician, and some of it is not any fun at all, like waiting at 3AM to get the bar closed out so we can get our "pro" pay, and then drive 500 miles for the next night's show, to wait again till 4Am to get our "pro" pay. I don't have to wait at a "pro" jam. I can have fun and go home

[rand]

Hey Kenb- You re partially right in saying that pro means getting paid but it can also be used to define how a person conducts themself, their attitude,how they treat others at the jams, or anywhere else. So in a way, although not monetarily, you are getting paid as a pro when you are rewarded with respect, loyalty, friendship and love by those people that don't know you or are meeting you for the first time and are cheering for you as you perform as you do the same for them. As said in an earlier post Quality of the entertainment goes hand in hand with these traits that make a successful Pro jam. Bottom line if you can't provide quality entertainment and a possitive, professional presentation of oneself, and satisfy the audience and the owner and staff at a venue. there is no pro jam. Hopefully as I've seen, by advertising as a pro jam, you attract those participants who can bring the ingredients to make a continually successful event, musicians and non- musicians alike. So we all have our "pro" card. It's how you use it that make it valid in our society

[jlev]

Jun 8, 2009 9:24:34 GMT -8 rand said:

So in a way, although not monetarily, you are getting paid as a pro when you are rewarded with respect, loyalty, friendship and love by those people that don't know you or are meeting you for the first time and are cheering for you as you perform

I tried payin my mortgage with respect and my grocer with loyalty with the expected results.

When people are called "profesional" it usualy means they are doctors, teachers or attorneys. These people get respect + financial compemsation comensurate with their skill. Why should artistic profesionals get any less? People expect us to work for free all the time. I don't consider, beer, a T shirt and "exposure" fair compensation for a life devoted to an art form.

[rand]

Joe, sorry i didn't mean that we should give the music away. yes it is a paying job and there is a struggle to make ends meet as a musician and anything outside of pay for your services is only souveniers. I have no love for drs. , lawyers but teachers are cool. I'm not sure if my comments were fair to the hard working artists that rely on the income as their main source but believe me. no smack intended and you MUST be compensated for your devotion to your craft and i will continue to support all as best as I can

[riw]

I agree with Rand. According to my dictionary, professional means:
1. Engaged in a specific activity as a source of livelihood.
2. Performed by persons receiving pay.
3. Having great skill or experience in a particular field or activity.

Professional is also used as a way to describe behavior. As in, "conduct yourselves in a professional manner".

I think us guys sometimes take things a little too literal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Pro Blues Jam supposed to imply that there will be musicians getting together to play the blues that know what they are doing? And not, professional musicians only will be playing blues music?

Joe,

Next time try paying your mortgage with a few tasty bass grooves! ;>)

[jlev]

Well, I guess that's what I do, or try to.

Maybe the term "Pro" jam is like "we reserve the right to refuse service" sign. And that is a right neccasery for the conducting of business. If I have learned one thing in 40 years in the bar business it's this: The customer ISN'T always right. Like the drunk dude with one harmonica that he insisted on playing in the audience. He got all bent out of shape when he wasn't welcomed on the stage.

Like I say: You must be at least this tall to ride this ride.

Another random thought: Because of economic realties many great musicians are part time now, but a large portion of them have spent some years playing full time. You learn different stuff when your livehood is on the line.

[Richard]

I think the word Pro should be included. If someone is not competent on their instrument, they should practice some more before trying to get on stage.

I ran a Jam in Humboldt County, and we always had the same problems. People complaining about not getting enough stage time, complaining about always being with the crappy players.... blah blah blah. I tried my best to get like minded/skilled musicians on stage together, and think I did a good job. But, it was never good enough. I used to tell new people that they could have 1 song, and we will see after that. Quite a few people only got that 1 song, and never were invited back up. Just because its a Jam session doesnt mean you have the right to get up on stage and make everyone else sound like crap.

You know those people that sing along with music, and sound like shit ? There are quite a few musicians that are the same way. They think they sound good, but they just are not any good at all. Some people just dont have an ear for music, and thats the harsh reality of it all. My wife for example, cant hear anything that is incorrect. I have sang along with a song a 1/2 step off key to see if she notices, and she cant tell at all. There are quite a few 'musicians' that are the same way. Im not saying Im better than those musicians, I just happen to be able to play better than those musicians If those people CAN play better than me, I am 100% positive they would be allowed on stage at any blues jam, PRO or not.

[jlev]

Richard, I agree totaly.

[mothermayhemband]

I must say. I have never been to a "Jam". I don't know much about them or how they work. But the only thing that I can offer is that as best I can tell, the people that complain about them are not playing either in a “Jam” or in a “Band” for a reason.

I am the first to admit I am a mediocre guitar player at best (my opinion, I played alto sax in H.S. and at Sac State back in the day) and was more into athletics then music when I was younger (I’ll challenge anyone on here to a game of one-on-one). But what I do offer is hard work, communication skills and a good attitude. These three things have translated into a full calendar of paying gigs (www.mothermayhemband.com/shows.htm)

I know that I play music for the enjoyment of playing and for the enjoyment of watching others appreciate what I do. I don’t think my band is the greatest, I don’t think I am great, but what we create together as a unit is great in that people enjoy it.

If the people that bash jams and clubs and other players would just realize that you get back ten-fold what you put out, they would realize that negative begets negative and positive begets positive.

I don’t even know what my point is other then I wanted to try to say something positive and hope that everyone has a great weekend and feel free to come by Louie’s Lounge Saturday Night. I am always open to constructive insight on how I can improve.